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The subject is a travel column that appeared online at MSNBC. The thread grew so long that we
have moved it here. The most recent responses are at the bottom.
Hey,
we're a family we can beat each other up, but outsiders better watch their step! MSNBC recently ran an article in their Travel section (See " Top 5 travel scams" ), in which the author thoroughly insulted both the industry and
the people who work in it. We were incensed about that and figured to rebut it, but then some other folks beat
us to the punch. We are reprinting their responses here, with thanks to the authors for their fine defense.
" Mr. Frenaye,
Congratulations. Never in my life have I been compelled to write to the author of any column or article, in any
publication, on any subject. Until I read your outrageous, outlandish characterization of the Timeshare Industry
in today's travel section of MSNBC.com. HAVE YOU LOST YOUR MIND????!!!
You open with the blanket statement, " People marketing timeshares are slick. They are not afraid to lie, cheat,
or steal to make a sale."
Let me help you out here a little. The Timeshare Industry is now comprised of some of the most respected companies
in the travel industry. Most notably, Disney, Marriott, Hilton, and Starwood/Sheraton among many many others. Of
course I noticed that your company, JVE Group operates a Carlson Wagonlit travel office in Maryland. So is it safe
to say that your travel agency is happily booking your clients regularly into resorts operated by those same slick
timeshare marketing people, and getting paid your agency commission for doing so? That's pretty slick.
How can you make such a sweeping generalization? The Timeshare Industry employs tens of thousands of people, the
vast majority of which are honest, hardworking and caring individuals. These are mothers and fathers, sons and
daughters, who have been fortunate to find a fun and interesting career that they find satisfying and fulfilling.
Vacation Ownership is a multi-billion dollar a year global industry, with a good percentage of that revenue being
generated by existing owners who enjoy the product so much, they are purchasing more vacation weeks as their lifestyles
and financial status change.
You remark (unbelievably) that once in a presentation, " ..you have put yourself in physical and fiscal danger."
WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? " PHYSICAL DANGER???"
Having been an industry professional for over two decades, in sales, marketing, and the finance side of the business,
I'd like you to know that a large percentage of people that attend the sales presentation have not only attended
multiple presentations over the years, but more and more are already owners, and are actively looking for additional
timeshare weeks to buy!! If their experiences have been so physically and emotionally traumatic, what are they
doing there??? Not only that, you obviously consider your readers to be drooling idiots who are absolutely helpless
once they fall into the clutches of those diabolical, mind-altering, hostage-taking, timeshare predators. Give
the American consumer some credit. Today's consumer is savvy, educated, and perfectly capable of making a buying
decision on their own without being held at gunpoint.
This industry is now highly regulated, (and should be) after some incidences of fraud and deceit in the early days
of the business, in the late 70's and early 80's. Now it is 2005. Timeshare properties are some of the most beautiful
vacation properties in the world. Customer service, and our level of commitment to our owners has never been higher,
and for those who choose not to buy timeshare after attending a presentation, you would find the vast majority
had a good time at the presentation, and were not " beat up" for taking a pass. My Mother, who is still
a successful timeshare salesperson after 20+ years, still receives Christmas cards and has made great friendships
with people that she has toured, but chose not to buy. She, like so many other salespeople, treats everyone with
respect and genuine appreciation for taking the time to see if it's a product that fits their lifestyle or not.
Are there exceptions? Of course. As in EVERY industry.
In my opinion you owe this industry an apology. You owe the Hilton, Disney, Starwood, and Marriott companies an
apology, since you make money off of them at the same time you call them criminals, and you owe your readers an
apology for not disclosing to them up front that as an operator of a travel agency, those comments were an attack
on a competing industry that I'm sure has cost you a few bucks over the years."
AND: " When
someone uses a forum like MSNBC to bash
an entire industry, it makes one wonder what their motives may be. I think your inclusion of the Timeshare industry,
along with such blatantly fraudulent enterprises as discount vacation clubs and airline false advertising is extremely
libelous and unfair. Granted, they may do things differently in third world countries, however Owners of our properties
are sold a quality product at a fair price by PROFESSIONAL and PRINCIPLED people, who are in turn supported by
a large staff of CUSTOMER SERVICE PROFESSIONALS who also never forget that our Owners are #1 and strive to exceed
their expectations. Sunterra Resorts has such a quality program that high pressure sales techniques of the type
you mentioned are not only unnecessary, but actually prohibited by corporate policy. Generalizations such as yours
(I bet you think all lawyers & car salesmen are crooks too) are mean-spirited and damaging to an industry that
provides employment to literally hundreds of TAX PAYING AMERICAN CITIZENS, and great vacation opportunities to
those who choose to utilize our services. You, Sir, are simply WRONG!"
Yeah!!! Take that! 
- YOUR COMMENTS:
- Jan. 28: --" I
agree generalizations and stereo-typing
is wrong, and the news media tends to do that quite often directly and indirectly. But you have to ask yourself,
how did they come to this conclusion? Granted the media will " sensationalize" things, but maybe you ought
to take a look at your own. From reading a lot of the negative information in here such as last week calling an
owner a sucker, well... what is one to conclude? Only takes one bad apple to spoil the whole bunch."
- AND: --" Mr.
Frenaye: You are either misinformed and ignorant
or you are knowingly mendacious! " Physical... danger." Get real, you may as well ask the readers to believe
that Elvis is alive!"
- AND: --" As
someone who owns more than 10 timeshares
and has attended more than 25 timeshare sales presentations during the last 5 years – MSNBC is correct in its allegation
that the timeshare industry is full of pitfalls, misinformation, and downright fraud.
Out of the 25 sales presentations we have attended only 3 timeshare sales reps were factual and never misled us
– ALL were Marriott salesreps. Out of the remainder, 10 salesreps were ignorant in many areas of timeshare ownership,
especially using exchange companies. The remaining 10 or so were misrepresenting facts and flat out lying.
This is a horrible track record for the timeshare industry that can easily be verified by doing a scientific poll
on this web site.
The timeshare industry should mandate that every person attending a timeshare sales presentation be given a booklet
explaining terms, conditions, and rights that they enjoy BEFORE the presentation."
- AND: --" All
reporters are liars and cheaters that
are merely after " the story" . They are known to fabricate or embellish the truth with nary a sleepless
night, no matter who they hurt. You see, we can stereotype too."
- AND: --" Fess
up boys and girls! We in timeshare sales
still see the bad stuff: burning of tours, i.e folks from India, certs that are not worth the paper they are written
on, price drops of thousands and much more. I do see us getting better though!"
- AND: --" Most liars
like Mr. Frenaye, never admit they are lying- it takes
all of the effect out the lie. Some liars even believe their lies. Instead in this case, Mr. Frenaye soft-pedaled
it, claiming to insult the timeshare industry. To the rest of the world, those are just more lies from a liar,
and it is still a lie."
- Jan. 29: --" My,
my sensitive aren't we. In regard to " physical danger"
referred to in the MSNBC piece, I have never in 18 years in timeshare seen or even heard of a rep physically assaulting
a client--but I have heard, and seen many times, were a CLIENT has lost it and attacked a rep, including one case
where a CLIENT came across the table to grab my wife (we worked tables at the same resort) by the throat because
he wanted to leave early--but still get his gifts. A loving inquiry as to whether he had ever seen the inside of
a Mexican jail defused the situation.
That being said, let's be a little less defensive and blindly self-protective and call it straight about the " puffs" ,
" loops" , small lies, big lies and outright frauds endemic in the Industry. If you aren't willing to admit
that crimes, misdemeanors and what should be charged a outright felonies aren't pervasive you are either (1) lying,
(2) deaf and blind, (3) hopelessly naïve or (4) a rookie.
How about phony table " buy-backs" , phony rental programs, phony give-up-your-right-of-rescission-for-the-" consideration" -you-received
pitches, phony pack the price schemes, sell one unit and substitute another unit scams, lying about trading power,
etc., etc.
And of course ARDA, the shill for the developers and the good old boy network, piously touts its " Code Of
Ethics" --and does nothing but pay lip service to this vaunted empty promise while the offending resorts and
salespeople continue blithely on. If ARDA would actually enforce their code of ethics instead of merely back-slapping
itself, collecting membership fees and holding self-congratulatory conventions, honesty and truthfulness would
be much improved.
And just think they could have started doing this years ago. But NO."
- AND: --" Didn" t
catch the M.S.N.B.C. segment but let's consider some hard
truths. Say you have established genuine rapport with the guest at your table {you like them} shouldn't you suggest
they check the internet? Fact is, they could buy what you're selling for pennies on the dollar in the after market.
Additionally they could rent most weeks, probably the one you're trying to sell, from R.C.I. for $499. Do the math,
they could rent years of weeks before spending the average cost of one week of timeshare. Oh yeah! with no annual
dues! There are a great many diligent, hard working, even sincere individuals in the business. They have to shove
these harsh realities to the back of their minds daily. I know, I recently attempted to reenter the industry after
a hiatus and found that I just couldn't shove anymore."
- AND: --" The
above statement hits the nail on the head!
This is exactly why after 12 years in the business I had to get out. Every salesperson knows the above statement
to be true. The most honest salesperson in the timeshare business would never tell all of his clients to check
out buying a resale for a lot less money than what they can offer. Doesn't this make this " honest" salesperson
a liar?"
- Jan. 30: --" It
would still be possible to go to several
if not every resort with a microphone and a camera and interview happy owners that would gladly share all of their
good experiences with their timeshare. Unfortunately, unless they can find an irate owner (maybe someone who hates
their car, their neighbors, their kid's etc.) nobody will care, it wouldn't be newsworthy."
- AND: --" Those
who have deep concerns about the environment
we sell, manage, market or develop within can always adjust.
If you honestly believe you are in an immoral place where cheating the public is part of the accepted method of
business, leave.
The world is ripe for opportunities in a variety of areas, nanotechnology, finance, agriculture, education. Dedicate
your lives to what you believe in, the money always follows. There is a good Rudyard Kipling that is appropriate
here, does anyone remember it? It's about being judged as artists and our rewards for doing good work on earth
is having, " a ten-league canvas ....with the tail of a comet" for our paint brush. I'm destroying the
poetry but the point, obviously, is there are other than monetary rewards but first pursue what you love.
I love this industry."
- AND:
--" Our in house reps sell to the exchange
guests for 40% off what we can sell
first generation tours. The customer could save thousands if they book a getaway through a friend and buy while
on property. Is this fair to the first generation tour who comes for the worthless cert? Is it fair to the first
generation sales people?"
- AND: --" As
someone who owns multiple weeks of " branded"
timeshare, and who has worked on the line at one of the top timeshare sites globally, I have to agree in broad
terms with the fact that in general, the timeshare product sold to the public does not work as advertised at the
point of sale.
Two things contribute to this: the first is our old nemesis - money. In our industry, we pitch heat to make the
sale. Anyone who can honestly say (s)he has never pitched heat is probably no longer in the industry. The second
is extremely poor corporate management. Our industry probably boasts the worst corporate management of any industry
of our size. Senior management comprises individuals who have been successful on the sales line. If you analyze
those who are generally successful senior managers in the corporate world (GE, ExxonMobil, Disney, Microsoft, Intel,
Wal Mart et al), with exceptions, the vast majority of these companies are managed at senior levels by people with
far broader backgrounds than those in our industry.
This leads to the sales team being led to believe medium and long term expansion/development plans that senior
management simply doesn't have the experience and/or management skills to accomplish. This in turn means we often
(unwittingly in many cases) mislead the buyer.
Hopefully over time, this is such a great industry with a terrific future that major players such as Marriott,
Hilton, Hyatt, Starwood and Disney will begin to bring in senior management from outside the timeshare industry
to professionally manage what can be one of the most profitable industries around today."
- Jan. 31: --" So
of the thousands of developers featured in II and RCI,
we can name only FOUR developers with REAL credibility: Disney, Hilton, Marriott and Vistana. Of course, anybody
who ever hauled a tour for Vistana or Hilton knows that these two are just wolves in sheep's clothing hiding behind
semi-respected names in the hotel industry but selling product with nosebleed drops and pitching 'heat. (I'll bet
Paris has really improved Hilton's image).
The sad fact is that Disney and, to a lesser extent Marriott, are the only major 'reputable' companies in the business.
Their products, while dramatically overpriced, offer reasonable value for the well heeled vacationer. A couple
of Marriott resorts have even increased in value as have the 'points' paid for Disney's vacation club, which we
all know is a lease.
My opinion is that the industry will see a shakeup so severe that less than 20% of the current developers will
survive. Prices for this stuff will fall faster than the DOW under a Republican administration. The survivors will
have to price their product based upon the economic realities of supply and demand and NOT on how much it costs
to build an 80,000 square foot luxury home (of course a lot of THAT money was unearned [read stolen] reserves and
other 'bad beats' by management of the poor employee). Sales by 'trick, scheme or device' will have to cease and
desist.
WAKE UP!!! Resale companies are beginning to advertise (gasp) on television and other mainstream media as well
as increase their web presence (developers' note: Disney and Marriott have RESALE programs that have VALUE). Gone
will be the day of ultra-confusing point programs designed and understood only by MBA's. It will be a great day
for the survivors and for the consumer."
- AND: --" Resales
are such a small percentage of the sales
that take place everyday, that if developers stopped selling, resale prices would skyrocket due to the limited
supply. Developers have to sell at the prices they do. There is the cost of construction and the cost of marketing.
Construction costs won't change and neither will marketing costs. Developers won't build without a certain profit
margin(if it was as high as people think, their stock prices would be through the roof, but they're not) and marketers
won't sell for less either(50% is standard not only in T/S but the insurance business and most other marketing-driven
industries). In home sales, Realtor sales make up about the same percentage as developer sales in T/S. The other
sales(FSBO and foreclosures) roughly equal T/S resales. The reason is Motivated Sellers. Motivated Sellers will
always sell for less than market, a lot less. You would be suprised to know how many homes in your town go for
pennies on the dollar because the seller was motivated. Bottom Line- In a very short time, there would be no resale
market, if the developers were to stop building and selling. Don't worry about the resale market, it will always
be there, but in an insignificant role."
- AND: --" I
am inspired by the honesty of some of the sales people
writing in on this issue. So I would like to add my 2 cents. I have been in the industry going on 20 years and
like a lot of you was very excited when MARRIOTT- HYATT- HILTON- DISNEY ETC. entered our industry. CREDIBILITY-NAME
RECOGNITION etc. These big corporations will certainly clean up this TIMESHARE BUSINESS!!! I couldn't wait to get
involved with one of these SAVIORS. I finally got my chance, and even though I have been a SALES MANAGER for the
last 12 years I was willing to start all over again as a sales agent taking tours and pay my dues to just get involved
with one of these CORPORATIONS. It was quite an eye opener to say the least. I would have FIRED half the line if
I was in that capacity. I have never seen such outright LYING in my life. Apparently working for these folks allows
you the ability to say things I never would have allowed in my room. I never heard such HEAT anywhere. Your INVESTMENT
WILL DOUBLE IN 5 YEARS- THERE WILL BE A PRICE INCREASE NEXT WEEK- PROPERTY VALUE HAS GONE UP $20,000 IN THE LAST
10 YEARS etc. etc.
I'm afraid what these CORPORATIONS have brought
to the INDUSTRY is CORPORATE THINKING which is how can we MAKE MORE FROM OUR OWNERS. The POINTS SYSTEMS are really
just a way to keep a client FOREVER, instead of just opening and closing Escrow let's give them POINTS so we can
sell them more down the road by changing POINT VALUES. The CUSTOMER SERVICE DESK is just a way to charge extra
fees by being a MIDDLEMAN for the Exchange Company. The FIRST RIGHT OF REFUSAL is just that: THEY REFUSE !!!!!!
And by the way the MARRIOTT RESALE program charges their OWNERS 40% IS THAT CUSTOMER SERVICE or WHAT."
- Feb. 1: --" Re
there being only four developers with
real credibility. Not so. What about Hyatt, Four Seasons, Ritz-Carlton (yes, a Marriott company but branded separately),
Wyndham, De Vere, Sol Melia, Accor, Occidental Hotels and there are other brands in the business too. This is a
global business and there are global brands besides the four mentioned that are USA based. Get off being so USA-centric!"
- AND: --" I
am new to timeshare and find this thread
interesting. I have a concern and need help. I feel guilty selling this with a first day promotion (listed in the
prospectus) and watching people get the same deal a week or more later. Is this legal for the resort to do? Isn't
the prospectus the law, filed with the state?"
- Feb. 2:
--" Newbie,
Sure you should feel guilty. Everyone
should, but most in the industry are not big on getting out of the box to come up with another way to persuade
people to make a major financial decision on the first day they learn that the opportunity to change their lives
forever even existed. In other words, learning how to change (improve) and learning better persuasion skills (improve)
are not often seen in the industry.
Like all of us, they are doing the best they can with what they have learned so far. If they knew a better way
to do it, they would. In their minds, it's " the end justifies the means" or the Clients-are-Lying-Too
Defense, or.... They have yet to learn a better way to do it, if you know one or learn one, please tell your sales
leaders about it.
In the meantime, if your First Day Credibility Problem is the only one you have with your employer and the product,
count your blessings. Enjoy inspiring people to have fun and making money in the process. Time Share is a unique
product and a unique employment experience. When an employer also makes it a great employment experience, as many
do, the experiences you have on a daily basis will enhance your people skills and life skills beyond any expectations
you currently envision. Add that to working daily in a environment of smiling people who are having fun. How many
Job Descriptions like that are there?"
- AND: --" Wow
...the " new" guy/gal hit it on the head.
The training and executive management philosophy structures your presentation to introduce the, " offer" ,
" incentive" , " our way of rewarding you for doing business today..." , or in this last example
" written in the prospectus!" How many have seen this rule broken?
Who is technically hurt by this? Could a group of owners who purchased under this assumtive and coersive tactic
feel violated if made aware of a material difference in the offering?
I'm just a protagonist, we have all been in businesses that were driven by immediacey (my spell check is on the
blink, help me out here). Great question by that post.
I've assisted with the b-back and if any of the liners (responsible for the initial tour) wer off that day, I'd
write it up for them. All to meet budget and keep us performing according to contract. We have to hit our numbers.
What do you think?"
- AND: --" I
am impressed with the blizzard of comments and reactions
to the industry critique. Lest we forget... one of the biggest historical scams foistered on the public was the
aluminum siding business. Talk about lies and deceit: we're going to wrap a 15 pound felt blanket around your home
before applying the product..... yours will be designated a model home which will allow us to allocate advertising
dollars to your siding project. Sound familiar for those of us 50 years older or more? The amazing thing about
the process was the product. It was manufactured by Alcoa Aluminum... a household word. The company served as a
member of the Dow Jones Industrial Average for years. What's the message? Forget the product's virtues... how is
it being sold?"
- AND: --" Can
we lose our timeshare or real estate license
for lying about the first visit promotion ? What happens if all those people who bought because they were told
they had to (first day promotion), find out they did not have to?"
- Feb. 3: --" What
about the fractional ownership deals?
First day incentives? Accredited clientele? Great
story on front page with private residences
and " it's
your world" section about the urban
market. I wonder how their offering plan reads, Anyone know?
Email: street@streettalkblog.com
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